Report #993
Skillset: Night Skill: Steal
Org: Shadowdancers Status: Completed Dec 2012
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1.
Problem: Steal is prerequisite skill for shadowtwist on a four second
equilibrium. On its own, it provides a very small increase in all direct damage
as well as a small increase in mana drain from lash, but it's main purpose is
that it is a requirement for twist. As it stands, the lengthy equilibrium cost
really hinders the usefulness of steal and subsequently twist in anything but
one versus one environments. Together with the first twist, it is a seven second
window where the target is virtually unaffected by any negative affects. This
report aims to increase the flexibility of steal and twist by decreasing the
equilibrium cost of steal so that it can actually be applied in typical combat
situations but not affect solo combat.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Decrease the equilibrium cost of steal two seconds.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Add an alternative syntax to steal that will consume
1 power and decrease equilibrium cost to 1.5 seconds.
Player Comments:
---[Llandros on 12/4 @ 14:58 writes]:
What is the eq time on twist? Having a doesn't really do much set up move is
hardly unique and guardian types tend to be set up for 1v1 fights, however, a 4
second eq does strike me as high. Not sure how this wouldn't affect solo combat
though.
---[Celina on 12/5 @ 02:10 writes]:
3 seconds per twist. It wouldn't affect 1v1 because SD is purely setting up a
finisher, waiting, and then timing the single shot burst. You're talking a one
time decrease of 2 seconds of a period of (typically) minutes. The end result,
for good or bad, will not be affected by steal.
---[Enyalida on 12/5 @ 03:11 writes]:
Is solution 1 'by two seconds' or 'to two seconds', or is there even a
difference? Either solution is probably fine, unless I'm missing something.
---[Celina on 12/5 @ 03:35 writes]:
Same thing. It's four seconds atm.
---[Llandros on 12/10 @ 00:30 writes]:
Meh, no objection to either. I really don't see any reason why the eq would be
more than the twist, which actually does something.
---[Rivius on 12/10 @ 06:23 writes]:
Sure to either solution.
---[Shuyin on 12/10 @ 20:55 writes]:
Solution 1
---[Ushaara on 12/12 @ 18:55 writes]:
Sure, supported.
---[Aeden on 12/14 @ 07:55 writes]:
1
---[Shuyin on 12/16 @ 20:56 writes]:
Given report 905, I've changed my mind. This report isn't really necessary
anymore if that report goes in.
---[Celina on 12/16 @ 21:50 writes]:
I don't understand how it's suddenly not necessary. Steal still has no direct
effect when the shadow is stolen, it is still required to do the most basic of
functions as an SD (lash, twist). It is the required opener for most combat
situations. It's still 4 seconds long (longer than every non wiccan bashing
attack int the entirety of the game). The only thing it can really be compared
to is blanknote and releasing shadows, which are not coincidentally, very fast.
The overall goal is to greatly lower this odd set up time SDs have with slow
prerequisite skills that are required for the main SD mechanics (toad, twisting)
that no other guilds really have. Steal used to be just a flavor skill with a
small buff to damage and lash, not it's kind of a core mechanic to SD
functionality and steal was never updated to reflect it. As I said, there is a
reason these prereq skills tend to be very fast...like dropping shadows before
choke.
---[Celina on 12/16 @ 21:52 writes]:
FYI steal is to twist, for all intensive purpose, what releasing shadows was for
choke. I'm having to shift mechanics that already existed. I just don't get how
this is unfair.
---[Celina on 12/17 @ 06:00 writes]:
Will you support solution two? It'll prevent this "race" theory by requiring
more time to regen power (more than the 2 seconds i'm taking off with this
report) but still make twist accessible for SDs in more than arena only
situations. I feel like solution two is a great compromise
---[Enyalida on 12/17 @ 15:40 writes]:
Not all pre-req skills are fast. Look the terrain/meld suite, which take normal
balance time (if not a bit longer, clocking in at a consistant 4.2 seconds, and
can be negated, unlike steal or drop shadows. I agree with Shuyin/Asmodea, this
probably should be one or the other, and this report is the better/more powerful
one.
---[Enyalida on 12/17 @ 15:41 writes]:
That's my meld time. My (non-force-)foresting is ~3.2 seconds. That's a total of
7 seconds before I can have effects hitting, over 8 if I had to forceforest
first.
---[Enyalida on 12/17 @ 15:43 writes]:
Great. Those comments were meant for 905, not this report.
---[Celina on 12/17 @ 21:20 writes]:
Don't comapare this to demesnes, unless you think shadows should do passive
afflictions too all enemies present. Apples and oranges. Your pre req is not the
same as mine by a long shot.
---[Celina on 12/17 @ 21:26 writes]:
At any rate, solution two makes the skill usable in group situations, but does
not decrease the amount of time to arrive at the finisher. It is limited by
power regen. Should solve the alleged issue that it will decrease the time to
get to the final twist and kill the target
---[Aeden on 12/23 @ 18:07 writes]:
Hm... I don't agree with this. I don't think steal's balance will hinder the SD
too much, given as it can be the first move or opener you can do followed by a
few vinings to hinder their offense and chain twist thereafter. (I call it chain
twisting, as the twisting is relatively fast if I recall correctly anyway.)
Plus, I mean the brownie is another factor that hinders the opponent to the Sd's
advantage without causing SD problems with taking a shadow and vining/webbing to
slow them down at the start.
---[Celina on 12/23 @ 20:59 writes]:
Again, solution 2 makes it viable for >>> group combat <<< without affecting 1v1
combat. I knocking off 2.5 seconds of eq for one power, and power regen is
slower than 1 per 2.5 seconds, it's actually 1 per 8 second at trans discipline,
so it'll be a net loss in time if the SD decides to use powered steal in a 1v1
scenario. The final twist and toad combination is limited by the 9 power
requirement to complete both, and consequently limits how much power you can
spend in the process OR how long you are waiting to regain power. Solution 2
does not change the 1v1 dynamic at all. However, it opens up shadowtwist to be
used to group combat that is typically too fast to waste 4 seconds of prep time
on a skill that does nothig on its own.
---[Shuyin on 12/24 @ 21:13 writes]:
All right, I thought about it long enough, and here's my conclusion - you
basically want steal/twist to be better for group combat. Fine. Definite solid
no to solution 1, solution 2 is fine provided it's 1p for 2s flat or 1.5s for
2p. This way, you're halving the eq time for 1p or taking a bigger loss for
1.5s. I will state though that for the record, I don't think this is
particularly vital for Night user combat simply because 4s off eq isn't that big
of a deal, given that many other equally important skills consume just as much,
if not more eq. Would be nice though.
---[Celina on 12/24 @ 22:16 writes]:
Either of those is fine. 2 seconds for 1p works for me. I don't think it's
vital, I think it adds some variety and options that currently don't exist. Just
to expand on the broad picture (I doubt anyone will read but whatever) a stolen
shadow only adds 10% mana drain and less than that for damage. So in the best
case scenario, the SD spends 4 seconds for the steal, and as lash is 4 second
eq, they have to lash 10 times to make up in drain over time. So that's upwards
of 44 seconds before steal actually pays for itself. Damage will be even longer
because of dmp scaling. When considering shadowtwist, steal for four, twist for
3 (currently does nothing, best case scenario it will entangle after next
report), twist for another three will double sleep and is useless in groups,
twist for another three for aeon, which can be used only three times, etc. So
you're talking 13 seconds. All the SD has done is very minor mana drain (7% per
twist), entangle once, and aeon once. That's pretty damn slow by any standard.
Moondancers can vines and wane in what...6 to 7 seconds? This is assuming best
case scenario group combat for both. So I say all that to say this: it bothers
me that changes are opposed with knee jerk reactions. Solution 1 is fine IMO,
and I think it's an awkward argument to undo how shadows worked with choke
rather than adapting it to new mechanics BUT I did put solution 2 up because
it's a decent alternative. One that actually lengthens the time between steal
and final twist (the big "race to the finish" argument) because of power regen,
but gives the SDs more options and flexibility in the early stages of a fight.
Room to choose their play style, because currently, it's pretty much mash a
button or 2 no matter what situation you are in. Vines, gaze, or lash. That is
SD group combat, this is a moderate step in the right direction to change that.